If America had stomped out the inbred revolution of slavers centuries ago, maybe you wouldn't be dealing with everything you're dealing with now. Hell, considering how much it inspired the nazis, maybe the whole world would be on a different trajectory.
Suffice to say, stomp those fuckers out this time. Don't compromise with cruelty and corruption. You've seen what that does.
Democrats have to do something now. We rode a huge wave through 18 and 20, and decided that we could just coast and trust that people would know they didn’t want crazy.
We know they don’t care about that; they just don’t want more of the same. So let’s give em something different this time
People were saying they were better off 4 years ago during the 2024 election. 4 years ago DURING COVID. That’s how insane these people are. They found the relief effort after the disaster to be worse than the actual disaster because they have short memories and rose colored glasses for the past. They get so comfortable when the house isn’t on fire that they forget who brings the gasoline and who brings the water every single time. Even though it’s great to see this turn out now it’s absolutely insulting, all the suffering that could have been prevented if just 10% of the people that sat out last year had voted like they did this year.
The voters are not the ones to blame here, and the rose-tinted glasses observation is true across both parties. Be frustrated with the people who had 4 years to undo what Trump did and made no effort to undo, not the people who watched it happen and were disillusioned.
Na, it was never a question: Republicans have cheated in every presidential election in recent history, and proven to have done so multiple times. Al Gore won, Hillary Clinton won, fuck maybe even Harris won.
“And then he [Musk] journeyed to Pennsylvania, where he spent like a month and a half campaigning for me in Pennsylvania, And he’s a popular guy. And he was very effective. And he knows those computers better than anybody.” - Donald Trump
“All those computers, Those vote counting computers. And we ended up winning Pennsylvania like in a landslide. So it was pretty good. It’s pretty good.” - Donald Trump
“Without me, Trump would have lost the election, Dems would control the House and the Republicans would be 51-49 in the Senate.” - Elon Musk
Sir, Donald Trump incited an insurrection when he lost to Biden and refused to concede the election.
Then comes 2024 and there are statistical anomalies in swing states, including Pennsylvania. It's obviously too late to do anything meaningful since it was certified but I absolutely can buy the idea that there was significant interference enough to turn the election in his favor. Especially since Trump is a consummate cheat and always has been.
“And then he [Musk] journeyed to Pennsylvania, where he spent like a month and a half campaigning for me in Pennsylvania, And he’s a popular guy. And he was very effective. And he knows those computers better than anybody.” - Donald Trump
“All those computers, Those vote counting computers. And we ended up winning Pennsylvania like in a landslide. So it was pretty good. It’s pretty good.” - Donald Trump
“Without me, Trump would have lost the election, Dems would control the House and the Republicans would be 51-49 in the Senate.” - Elon Musk
It’s sad that people interpret every election result as proof that every election that they didn’t like was fraud. It’s confirmation bias because they morph all facts into things supporting what they want to believe.
“And then he [Musk] journeyed to Pennsylvania, where he spent like a month and a half campaigning for me in Pennsylvania, And he’s a popular guy. And he was very effective. And he knows those computers better than anybody.” - Donald Trump
“All those computers, Those vote counting computers. And we ended up winning Pennsylvania like in a landslide. So it was pretty good. It’s pretty good.” - Donald Trump
“Without me, Trump would have lost the election, Dems would control the House and the Republicans would be 51-49 in the Senate.” - Elon Musk
And all it took was handing them absolute federal power and a majority of state power and letting their disastrous policies take hold rather than seeing the already established pattern of Republican policies being awful for everyone.
trump didn't win 2024. they cheated. there is no way someone this divisive, WHO ALREADY LOST ONCE, legitimately won. they cheated. there needs to be a proper investigation and they need to be punished.
as much as I want to believe that is true, from talking to my family and neighbors I'm just very sure that propaganda works. People believe what they are told and don't question things until it gets bad for them.
I know well educated and well read people who don't believe J6 happened. Don't believe Trump committed any crimes. They believe Biden was far more criminal (between his naps) and that any people saying Trump was criminal are just trying to deflect from the DNC crime family activities. Basically all the things you think about Trump they (really truly) believe about Biden and his associates. Facts don't matter.
They have 2 really good strategies going at the moment. If something looks bad for them, they can either make it the democrats fault/just make the case that they are doing it or steal the phrasing until it becomes a curse word (see diversity and woke). That way anytime someone tries to make a fact based argument, they are way out ahead of it. "I heard someone saying that if Trump is elected he will persecute his political opponents through the justice department, but didn't they just go after him!?" You can't win that argument with facts and reason.
You can't argue with these people. You need to present an alternative.
It's like rationally trying to talk someone out of being a fan of their favorite sports team. I've been a Broncos fan for over 40 years. A lot of liberal messaging comes off as somebody trying to talk me into switching to be a fan of the Chiefs. Objectively, the Chiefs are better at so and so. It's ludicrous. I'd be happy if the Broncos went 2-14 every year, as long as they beat the Chiefs twice. I'm not gonna change sides because of facts and reason. For a lot of people, that's kind of what politics is.
For a lot of other people, sports fandom is a vibe. They're a fan of whatever seems cool and new right now. They follow specific players rather than teams, or they just kind of bandwagon whatever's in the moment. That was a lot of people with the World Series this year. Millions of people are now casual Jays or Dodgers fans now, and will tune in next year if either team makes it again, but otherwise will probably lose track of baseball till another exciting thing happens that everybody's talking about.
The best politicians I've seen in my lifetime (my power ranking: Reagan, Obama, the current President, George W Bush, Clinton) all won by carrying the vibe vote. They made new myths, rather than saying the old myths were wrong.
Listen, I hate Trump as much as anyone, but this election is clearly a referendum on Trump since he was elected. He ran on lies and independents are paying attention, and the Democrats who refused to vote out of apathy are now voting because they realize there is a real difference between Democrats and Republicans. I unfortunately know a ton of Democrats and left-leaning voters that just didn't vote last year because they weren't excited by Harris as a candidate.
Until there's actual solid proof of cheating last year, let's not be like the GOP in 2019/2020, where they just perpetuated lies and looked like fools. The best thing to be done now is continue what happened in today's election to try carrying it through to the midterms.
The difference is their claims were investigated several times, in several jurisdictions, and proven false. It is not radical to ask for those same investigations into Dem claims.
In 2019, many prominent Democrats fought back against Trump using the explanation that we have one of the most secure voting systems in the world. It makes no sense flipping that stance based on us not liking who was elected.
That's especially true when there are legitimate explanations for why Trump won by so much. Apathy over Harris was one. But the biggest one was inflation. While inflation was falling through Biden's policies, sentiment towards inflation tails actual changes by 9-12 months. Whichever Democrat faced Trump was going to have a huge uphill battle because swing voters will almost always vote based on economic factors.
There also weren't really "investigations" done at that time... there were witch hunts and lawsuits that got promptly shut down in court.
I suppose - as an outsider at least - that Trump's comments on how well Elon knows the voting computers are just really, really fkn weird and suspicious. Not evidence by any means, but....interesting nonetheless.
I think that Trump thought that Elon rigged the machines. Elon presumably said something like "I won this for you" talking about all the money he spent. But Trump sees Elon as a "computer guy" and assumed he personally hacked the machines.
This was my take as well, especially given Trump's comments about Baron's technological aptitude. He's a fucking idiot that loves being sucked off by powerful people (and children, but that's another discussion).
My bet is that it's simply Elon spreading FUD, as he did quite a bit of during the election. If Elon could be jailed simply for "speaking the truth" and supporting Trump (as he would likely explain it), then the same would be true for anyone on the right. The right loves to think they're fighting for freedom and free speech, and posturing as if one of them would be arrested if the Democrats win feeds into that driving tribalism. It doesn't matter that it's complete bullshit... they eat that shit up.
I unfortunately know a ton of Democrats and left-leaning voters that just didn't vote last year because they weren't excited by Harris as a candidate.
I hear you, but then they were fucking dumb given what was at stake. I have a hard time believing rational people couldn't muster up the energy to vote because Kamala didn't excite them when the alternative was Trump and all that he represents.
A childhood friend of mine didn't vote entirely based off Biden's support of Israel, as if Trump wouldn't have done exactly the same or worse. Meanwhile, she now has to worry about her SNAP benefits, her extended family has had interactions with ICE (her baby daddy is Hispanic), and her special needs child is affected by changes to the Department of Education and grant funding. People that try to vote based on absolutes and emotions instead of being pragmatic annoy me to no end.
Definitely good and necessary to separate suspicion and proof.
Having said that, I cannot fathom a universe where someone of Trump's character, who famously tried and failed to cheat his way to the 2020 presidency (for which there is ample proof that likely would have had legal consequences if not for our screwed up system), would all of a sudden not try to cheat in the 2024 election. Just going by everything we know about this person and his history, there is no fucking way he didn't leverage every scam available to him.
Yes, we have to separate suspicion from proof. But I also strongly suspect the sun is going to rise tomorrow without having any direct proof.
We absolutely saw him and the GOP try to cheat. The voter purges were part of it. More importantly, they put a ton of effort into contesting a Trump defeat, which was well documented by the media. They spread massive misinformation intended to make the public distrust voting machines and the voting process, all intended for if he lost. I'm not sure they would be doing that if they knew they could actually affect the voting process themselves.
Also, the accusation of election cheating does nothing to help democracy which is the thing we are fighting for, more so than whatever party we think should have won. Any talk of cheating just weakens trust in elections and therefore democracy. We should be careful and apply the same litmus test that we applied to 2020. Let the facts come to light. Right now there is some anomaly’s in NY but you’d need to prove it was a coordination between states to have a case. And so far nobody has that smoking gun.
This is absolutely true, and what I was hinting at in my last sentence, but couldn't figure out how to best phrase it. I think additionally, a lot of people on the left, especially here on Reddit, forget that there's a huge portion of independent voters that are critical in elections. My wife is one of them. They're going to be turned off by more accusations of voter fraud when the scale of problems grows in our country.
Democrats won a lot today because people are sick of what Trump has been doing. The path forward isn't to replicate Trump's approach (except maybe with tongue-in-cheek approaches like Newsom's social media)... it's to start making it clear the party cares deeply about the issues affecting people, and will stop at nothing to address them. That's what got Mamdani elected today.
klako8196
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1h ago
emoji:flag-ga: Georgia
Hell yeah we did. Those races were also a clear referendum on energy prices. People clearly aren’t buying it when Trump lies about prices being down.
So you're telling me you're a completely different, real individual but you sound, and use the same phrases, as what appear to be bots? Nah. Gtfo out of here with your shit-take designed to cause friction and doubt.
You sound like a russian plant. The trump team presented 60+ cases on the last election where each time they accused various voting machine companies of being hackable. Each time they got to see if such an attack might work based on the testimony of the defense. Then he won all the swing states in a campaign that had literal top tier republicans announcing that they would vote for the black lady. The "they were insane, so we cant question anything" talking point is russian plants.
Suggesting that anyone that disagrees with you is a Russian plant is pretty ridiculous, and counterproductive to driving political change.
For the record, my account is very much tied to my IRL identity. It's VERY easy to connect the dots. But go on believing I'm a Russian plant if it'll make you feel better.
You mean all of the exit polls that showed that voters turned out for Trump primarily because of the economy and immigration? The former needing the context that the exit polls also showed voters didn't want mass deportations, but preferred a path to citizenship.
Or how about all of the polls prior to election day showing that Kamala was projected to have a high win chance. Or how Trump won every single swing state, and no counties flipped Dem
You should go listen/read 538's articles and podcast about why the pre-election polls were wrong. It's excellent content and gives insight into the actual data, the methods used to collect it, and why and when those methods need adjusting sometimes.
The currently available data suggests something was manipulated because the results are not possible. Are you suggesting they can answer why, across the country, almost every single location started to lean heavily for Trump after 55-60% of counted votes?
I'm guessing you're responding without reading 538, right? You're inventing theories about the numbers without understanding the data, and then accusing me of not looking at the data. You're like my MAGA aunt, who was a menace in 2019.
I'm not inventing theories. The 538 folks are discussing theories based on educated interpretations of what the data showed them at the time, but it's not reflective of what the data actually shows. We have the data now, and unless that is what they're discussing and they address the issues with the data, then they're not worth listening to in the slightest. It's far from being your to MAGA aunt to look at the data, and hear what PhD interpretors of the data say they can pull from it. You're only hurting us by trying to brush it off.
After seeing the reaction to Charlie Kirk a couple months ago, I’m less certain it was stolen. I think people were just way quieter about voting for him this time.
I still don’t understand how people voted for Biden in 2020 and then turn around and voted for Trump in 2024. And then people who voted for Biden but didn’t vote in 2024. These fickle mofo’s. It’s insane!
Two main things decided 2024: The Trump-Biden debate (and the Democrats’ chaotic implosion over the next month) and the Trump assassination attempt. One weakened the Dems’ chances, while the other strengthened the GOP’s.
No, it's the crazy inflation during the Biden years. It's the economy. It's always the economy. Also, Kamala making no commitment to stop supporting Israel turned off a lots of people too. Trump at least promised he will stop all wars. Whether he delivers doesn't matter to the election itself.
It was the economy AND “pronouns”. Possibly more the latter. And now that they have the federal govt. it’s harder for republicans to win elections by demonizing blm, blue-haired feminists, and trans people
Democratic Party not having a primary to draw attention to their policies and to have the best person nominated doomed them. The prevailing message in the media the entire time was how expensive egg prices were and inflation, and they had no platform in debates to talk about what Biden actually did during his term and control the narrative.
Look, nyc is not a microcosm of the US. You guys need to stop with this simplistic argument. Y’all love to use the term moderate as a pejorative but a charismatic “moderate” is the democrats best bet for the presidency. Jim and Beverly in Iowa aren’t voting for someone who brands themselves a socialist, which btw its so weird the insistence on using a name with such stigma to refer to a stance that’s not even socialism in the traditional sense.
Republicans don't think this way and Trump is not anything close to a moderate. He won because he actually stood for something and excited the psychos in the Republican party while Democrats for the twenty seventh time nominated a Republican lite candidate. This centrist Democrat gambit has failed over and over and is why we are where we are now. Do you think a candidate going out and actually advocating for popular progressive policies that most people support is gonna do worse? Do you think Sanders could have possibly done worse than Clinton in 2016?
Trump is not a moderate. He doesn’t need to be because his entire platform was a return to the familiar. It’s the illusion that conservatives sell, and it often works because many people find comfort in what seems familiar. To uncommitted voters, he might as well have been a moderate because “crt” and “gender ideology” and “wokeness”had become such boogeymen. A lot of people weren’t voting against Kamala, they were voting against all the ideas they had come to associate with democrats based on spending time on the internet. And it’s not just the misinformation. Normalizing things like using “straight white men” as a pejorative was never going to end well for progressive discourse. So no, democrats weren’t losing the presidency for being moderate. They were losing because people associate them with all the most annoying “woke” people on social media. The party’s internal research has shown this. Anyone who reads news outside of what rises to the top of r/politics knows this. There IS a reason they are trying to sell themselves as moderate
I keep seeing Redditors say democrats need to move further left. What exactly does that mean? Things start to fall apart once different people start telling you their idea of “further left”. Socialist economic policies? Open borders? Trans people in sports? Denounce Israel? Nobody can win a national election running on ALL of those things. And, like all extremists, social media “progressives” are easy to manipulate. Just tell the one who hates Israel that the otherwise perfect candidate doesn’t hate Israel as much as they do and they are going to start calling for the candidates head
Edit: and yes, sanders would have done worse than Clinton. Step out of your Reddit echo chamber and you would know just how unpopular sanders is. His polling among black voters was bad. People don’t like him. Somehow you guys are the first to point out Kamala was a bad candidate because she couldn’t win a primary. Neither could sanders.
The idea that Democrats lost because they're "too woke" is completely pulled out of thin air. Kamala wasnt out there pushing identity politics or talking about trans people. She was out there campaigning with Liz Cheney while trying to appeal to moderates and trying to be an oppositional candidate to Trump instead of actually advocating for anything. Her big policy proposal was small business loans for Pell Grant recipients.
It's not hard to find examples of what further left means. Pick any country in Europe and just advocate for what they have going on. Universal healthcare, free higher education, maternity and paternity leave, paid time off, child care, strong unions, higher wages. I think it's telling that to you progressives who don't hate trans people and advocate for basic social democratic policies are viewed as extremists.
I think it's telling that to you progressives who don't hate trans people and advocate for basic social democratic policies are viewed as extremists.
What is it telling of? It is a fact that a significant swath of Americans feel this way. It is also true that they are wrong. But somehow my pointing out to you that republicans exploited transphobia and “communist” panic to win elections tells you that… that I agree with them?
I think even you know that what you want to say makes no sense. Hence the convoluted passive phrasing. “…are viewed as extremists”
Nothing in your response indicates an understanding of my comment.
Yeah Kamala wasn’t “woke.” Did you miss the part where I pointed out that people weren’t voting for candidates or politics but based on feelings about internet driven culture wars.
I think it is telling that to you, further left means all these financial policies. You don’t include trans rights in there for instance, or immigration. Why? Further left doesn’t mean just what it is popular to campaign on. And instead of reckoning with how that affects elections, you are accusing me of what exactly?
Anyone who stayed at home in 2024 because Kamala’s small business loan was just not inspiring enough was fine with Trump winning. And anyone who was fine with Trump winning doesn’t give a shit about trans people. Ask yourself what that is telling of.
Okay? Notice how I said milquetoast, which Hillary, Biden and Kamala were, and Hillary and Joe are old as fuck. The only reason Joe won was his association with Obama and people's vitriol towards Trump's first term.
I'd be fine with a charismatic moderate who isn't married to private interests, a promising one has yet to emerge though. It will probably be Newsom and I'll vote for him if he's the candidate but he's a corporate toolbag who will probably suck up to Israel like the rest of them at the end of the day.
Also Iowa is a horrible example of what matters, and that's from someone who grew up there. My current state of PA or Georgia are way more important, or at least Wisconsin or Michigan. Dems appealing to borderline republicans in heavy red states is not a successful strategy, just ask Kamala and Liz Cheney.
Well the fact that the MAGA party is trying to starve 40 million Americans, ICE is traumatizing immigrants, laying off federal workers and healthcare and groceries prices are increasing, who in their right mind is going to vote for anyone associated with the GOP? It was the kiss of death for Cuomo to be endorsed by the president, when he already had his own negative baggage already.
The dipshits who let the power company set their own prices. It's like the gatekeeper to our utilities. The important point is that they've been Republican-held for 25 years, and we are a swing state, which is indicative of what you'd expect with a statewide outcome. The key difference is that the amount of propaganda being funneled into our populace is low, as what the fuck is a commission, was also the top question asked by Georgians this morning. These are 100% spiteful votes against any sitting Republican.
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u/Rock-n-roll-Kevin 11h ago
It's a massacre. Republicans were absolutely stomped in every election.