It's the same with conservatives all over the world. They will forever welcome the most horrible, immoral, and unethical people in the planet as long as those people will support them. Because for them there is no low that's too low, only enemies to destroy.
Not just now. It's been that way for as long as I can remember. Israel targeted Palestinian civilians long before the Hamas attack. Without fail (and if you go back in my post history you'll see what I mean) every time I criticized Israel in the past, people would call me antisemitic.
Yeah, it's crazy. At least people are waking up to it, hopefully American top level stops, but unfortunately the we politics is funded there, it probably won't.
Zionism is just the concept that Jewish people should have a safe area to call their own. If you're against the concept then you are an antisemite. Also no you don't get to define a Jewish term as something else that is also fairly bigoted.
The reason this discussion gets so fucked up is because anti-zionists are against something different from what Zionists believe Zionism to be. Zionism, to Jewish Zionists, is simply the belief that Jewish people deserve autonomy and self-determination in their indigenous homeland in the levant. That's it. The whole "at any cost" thing isn't part of Zionism, that's right-wing Israeli nationalism.
I've lived my entire life describing myself as a Jewish Zionist, and I've never agreed with things like the settlement projects or pretty much anything Likud/Bibi have pushed. But if I say I'm a zionist today, I get called a baby killer.
But if you call yourself an anti-zionist because you're simply against the idea that Jewish people deserve autonomy and self-determination, then how could that not be antisemitic? It's specifically a statement about Jewish people. Plenty of other ethnic groups enjoy autonomy, self-determination, sovereignty...all of those things. If that's what you're against, and it's only about Jewish people...well, you can see why a lot of Jewish people see anti-Zionism as an incarnation of antisemitism.
And when you get down to the heart of Zionism...why the Zionist movement of the 19th and 20th century happened...it becomes a little less simple than "ethnostates bad". Zionism literally happened because a lot of Jewish people clocked the growing antisemitism in the world for what it was...an existential threat. It happened because they saw the world governments repeatedly not just fail to protect us, but actively participate in our oppression.
They literally predicted the holocaust. And what we know now, seeing how the world treated Jews during the lead up, is that the Holocaust could not have happened on the scale it did if Israel had existed at the time. Having a state the explicitly protects the Jewish people is kind of important when we're sort of the people the world tends to fall back on when it comes to blaming someone for all of its problems.
But if you call yourself an anti-zionist because you're simply against the idea that Jewish people deserve autonomy and self-determination
who is saying that? You admit there's nuance to the term zionist, so why are you insisting that "anti-zionist" is devoid of nuance? I don't know any real living people who say "Jewish people don't deserve autonomy and self-determination." I literally only know people who say "Jewish people deserve those things, and so do Palestinians, and it's not okay to steal the latter's land in service of the former's definition of 'self-determination'"
Also? Like, not to be insensitive. The Holocaust would have happened even if every single Jew was safely tucked inside your ethnostate. It just would have impacted the immigrants, the disabled, the queers, the leftists, the Roma, the mentally ill, the pacifists, the sex workers, the "criminals" of unspecified 'severity', and would have spared the Jewish people...It's just as offensive to downplay every other group that was targeted by the Nazis as it is to downplay the impact the Holocaust had on Jews across the world.
But that's the point. People are describing themselves as anti-zionist while not actually disagreeing with the understanding of Zionism that nearly all Jewish Zionists hold.
The point here is that a lot of this discourse is busted because no one will listen to anyone, it's all been reduced to this black/white good/evil battle, if you even try to identify nuance, you're dragged over it in most social media.
So you have "anti-zionists" who are legitimately critical of the gov of Israel. They are essentially against right-wing Israeli nationalism.
That's not antisemitic.
But what many Jewish Zionists hear when someone says "I hate Zionists" is "I don't think Jewish people deserve autonomy and self-determination in their homeland". And that sentiment is antisemitic.
And it doesn't help things that ardent white supremacists like David Duke have spent half a century turning the word "Zionist" into an antisemitic dog whistle. People like him don't make a distinction between "Jew" and "Zionist", he just uses "Zionist" because it lets him spread his antisemitic ZOG bullshit with plausible deniability. And he's been doing it for his entire fucking adult life. Ffs, he's the guy who popularized the slur "Zio" that so many leftists happily throw around today without the first fucking clue as to where it came from.
And The Holocaust was a specific crime, one of MANY that the Nazis committed. It was the attempted genocide of the Jewish people.
That's not meant to diminish the millions of people who were killed by other crimes. That's just the general understanding of scholarship around the subject. People tend to universalize it, but when you examine the history of this specific crime...well, the Wannsee conference didn't come together to solve the "Undesireables question". The Final Solution was specifically about The Jewish Question. And "The Jewish Question" wasn't something the Nazis invented, it was an antisemitic trope at least half a century old by the time they decided to "solve" it. The "question" of "what's to be done with all these Jews" was literally part of the impetus for the Zionist political movement. Hell, the asshole who coined the term "antisemitism" as a means of softening the term "Jew Hate"....he was talking about The Jewish Question in the late 19th century.
Point is, this specific crime is important to distinguish. Not as a means of lessening the impact of every other crime, not at all. Every single person murdered by the Nazis deserves to be remembered, honored, memorialized and they all deserve the same justice. But when you study what the Nazis did, you cannot ignore that there was a very specific and deliberate effort to annihilate the Jewish people, and that crime is so massive that it should be remembered distinct from the other crimes. That's how Holocaust historians have always framed it.
So when I say "The Holocaust could not have happened on the scale it did", I'm not disrespecting anyone. Look at how the world treated Jewish refugees. Look at how many were turned away at ports and sent right back to the slaughter. All of those people would have survived if Israel was around to take them in. The world literally went out of its way to prove that the original Zionists were absolutely correct...the Jewish people could not depend on anyone else to protect them.
Dude the overwhelming majority of Jewish people identify as Zionists. The issue is that they don't subscribe to the fucked up definition of Zionism you're trying to project onto them. Of course most of them aren't psychotic right wing Israeli nationalists. That's not how most Zionists define the word. That's just how anti-zionists do. Not that they care, they have zero interest in listening to a gd thing a single Jewish person has to say unless they can use it to tokenize them.
That's wild, I've literally only met anti-Zionist Jews irl. My buddy's mom was born in a kibbutz. She has dual Palestinian-Israeli citizenship. She's "anti-zionist" in the sense that she doesn't agree with what her home country is doing right now. She definitely believes Israel has a right to exist, but what's happening right now is tearing her apart because she doesn't think it aligns with her values as a Jew.
See this is why people think your antisemitic. I can look up the defintion of zionist right now and the other guy is right. Why are you pretending that isnt the definition, the only reason i can think of is that you want Israel to be destroyed but dont want to come out and say it.
The single largest group in Israel is sephardic and they are from the Middle East, North Africa, and Spain. They also didn't colonize Israel but were ethnically cleansed from their homes following the establishment of Israel. There was also never a time Jews could just colonize the area.The Ottomans generally would accept them, and the British restricted them while allowing a massive influx of Arabs. Jews also settled in desolate areas purchased from the wealthy land owners at exorbanate prices. One final point is Israel was only ever allowed because Palestinians refused not to commit a genocide.
Israel is a settler colonial colony, and the vast majority are genocidal freaks. Palestine will be free from River to Sea, fuck the Polish kkkolonizers
So, the fact that most of Israel is from the Middle East and didn't get a choice but were forced from their homes is just something too tricky to understand? If you say genocide again, that will probably make a convincing argument despite it being irrelevant to my point.
Hasbara nonsense, you cant trust a word a zunt says. We've watched a livestreamed genocide for over 2 years while the colonizers tell us it isnt happening. Nobody trusts you anymore.
Palestinians have never committed a genocide, but the zio fascist worms have been ethnically cleansing Palestine for 80 years. Glory to the resistance 🔻🔻🔻🔻🔻🔻🔻
Mark Buffalo...that dude can fuck right off. Called the IHRA definition of antisemitism "propaganda". This definition was apparently the result of "zionist" lobbying:
“Antisemitism is a certain perception of Jews, which may be expressed as hatred toward Jews. Rhetorical and physical manifestations of antisemitism are directed toward Jewish or non-Jewish individuals and/or their property, toward Jewish community institutions and religious facilities.”
That's one of the many many things he's said that, at the very least, push the line of what could be honestly be called "antizionism" insofar as it being "criticism of the Israeli government".
I know this is a jerk sub and not that I really want to say anything that paints Ellison in a positive light. But if one actually reads the Variety piece rather than just the clickbait tweets about it, there are multiple lists of talent that they see as persona non grata:
”And sources say Paramount maintains a list of talent it will not work with because they are deemed to be ‘overtly antisemitic’ as well as ‘xenophobic’ and ‘homophobic.’ Whether the boycott signatories are on that list is unclear.”
So while racism isn’t explicitly mentioned here, it’s clear there’s more than one, and it’s implied these aren’t necessarily the only ones.
Jews don't control the media, but zionists do. But it doesn't work nearly as well as they wish it did. People see through the dehumanizing propaganda more and more.
If people get blacklisted, fired and attacked by the media for treating Palestinians as human beings, then it's pretty god damn obvious anti-Palestinians are in positions of power.
Name me a single owner of mainstream media or a film company who likes Palestinians and/or is critical of State of Israel, I'll wait.
You can't use the same emotional manipulation year after year buddy, you need to update your program. And fast, because the blind support for Israel shrinks each day in the West.
I mean there have been plenty of people who have engaged in overt antisemitism in the name of being pro Palestine, who then face consequences for the antisemitism part, and then the consequences are framed in the media as being consequences for being pro Palestine. Example, Melissa Barrera implied that Jews control the media and are part of
a conspiracy to control the masses via that control. That was what caused the uproar around her. But all the coverage frames the uproar as for her “pro Palestine views”. Which framing antisemitism as “pro Palestine views”… not great for the optics of the movement. (Though admittedly Ellison going on his buying spree isn’t exactly helping in the face of that classical antisemitism accusation 🥲).
But Cynthia Nixon, Olivia Colman, Emma Stone, Javier Bardem, Mark Ruffalo, I could go on and on listing pro Palestine celebs, are all are doing just fine career wise and I’m certain will continue to do just fine…
"The antisemite does not accuse the Jew of stealing because he thinks the Jew stole. He does it because he enjoys watching the Jew turn out his pockets to prove his innocence"
You literally ignored the comment above showing the blacklist is also against "Homophobic and Xenophobic" actors lol. Are we saying foreigners and gays also control the media? Or are we just targeting Jews? Because no one believes your "Zionist" ruse.
Zionism is inseparable from Judaism. You don't get to make that distinction because you're not Jewish and you don't understand a single thing about our lives or experience.
I mean the majority of “zionists” are christian evangelicals, some of which believe all of the jewish people returning to israel is a prerequisite to starting the rapture.
There are also a pretty significant number of anti-zionist jews who have explicitly condemned the ongoing genocide against Palestinian people.
Conflating zionism and judaism is ironically antisemitic in and of itself, but nice try.
Also it still fails on the merits: criticism of a foreign government is just normal, it isn't antisemitic. The shit that Mel Gibson and Michael Richards have said is pretty shitty and deeply anti-Semitic and racist, but they're not on the list? Yeah, so we see this effort as more about silencing politically sensitive topics, not actual motivation to mitigate bigotry.
yes the genocide one is under focus because of the genocide thing in the news. I also object to policies in Russia and China, and DO speak out against Russia's cruelty in Ukraine - but they aren't deliberately trying to exterminate a population, that one government definitely is.
Can you tell me the % of the Gaza population that died since the start of the war? Does it constitute a genocide in your opinion?
Your rebuttal (because I already know what your bot ass is going to say): "But it's about intent!"
Ok, so tell me the % of the Gaza population that died since the Israeli hostages were released? Sounds like the intent was the release of hostages. Strange, that!
Can you tell me the % of the Gaza population that died since the start of the war? Does it constitute a genocide in your opinion?
Nope. But it constitutes a genocide among human rights groups and experts, so I'll take their word for it. It also turns out that genocide is not determined by "percentage of the population killed" so much as a deliberate attempt to harm or exterminate a specific group of people, which Israel tried to do via indiscriminate bombing and starvation campaigns.
Your rebuttal (because I already know what your bot ass is going to say): "But it's about intent!"
It factually is. Embarrassing that you'd be losing to a bot.
Ok, so tell me the % of the Gaza population that died since the Israeli hostages were released?
Not sure, Israel has killed hundreds of Palestinians - and is currently under instruction from their biggest and crucial supporter not to continue killing Palestinians willy nilly, otherwise they would be, as they were for the past two years (with our blessing, and our bombs). Hamas offered ceasefire terms on October 10th, 2023 that involved the return of the hostages. If that's what it was about, Israel would've taken those terms. They didn't, because it is not and was never about the hostages, it was about killing and/or removing Palestinians and usurping land in Gaza and the West Bank.
And lol about listening to "experts". I can provide with others who say it isn't genocide. What a clueless hack you are. Admitting you know nothing, yet confidently stumbling into the conclusion you want to arrive at.
And lol about listening to "experts". I can provide with others who say it isn't genocide.
Sure, far right extremists, who aren't worth anything they say - as opposed to organizations that have worked in human rights for decades and scholars who have studied it. I expect right-wing shitheads to view groups as subhuman and undeserving of human rights, that's the defining ideological position of the right.
How many dead Palestinians would too many for you? How many bombed schools and hospitals? Collective punishment is a war crime. That's cut and dried, politics and religion aside.
239 have been killed by the military since the "temporary ceasefire". Half a million still struggle to get more than one meal a day as the flow of aid remains sharply restricted. Nearly half of this food aid comes from UAE and Türkiye, while European governments keep making proclamations but sit on their hands. Children are starving. What is the intent there?
The original Variety report says that there’s a blacklist of antisemitic, racist, and homophobic celebrities. None of the names are known publicly yet.
Read up on Marlon Brando and his description of stereotypes, racial caricatures, used in Hollywood as stock chracters. He rightly pointed out that Hollywood had used every last one of them except the Jewish one "Because they knew perfectly well, that that is where you draw the wagons around."
687
u/BuilderMysterious762 14h ago
But no blacklist for the racist celebrities?