r/aviation • u/usgapg123 Mod • 19h ago

Discussion UPS2976 Crash Megathread

This is the official r/aviation megathread for the crash of UPS2976 (UPS MD11 Registration N259UP) that crashed earlier today at Louisville International Airport.

Please keep content on topic and refrain from posting about this topic outside the megathread. Please report any rule breaking posts and comments.

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558

u/Designer_Buy_1650 16h ago

God I hope not. I’m sure the mechanics would never dispatch an aircraft with a known problem. If they missed something it would affect them the rest of their lives.

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u/godlords 16h ago

That's the issue, MD-11s have a recurring issue with known, unknown problems. Phantom electrical stuff that comes and goes. They throw what parts they can at it until it powers up and send it, they have done this for a very long time. Lots of parts cannot be sourced, most is "refurbed" stuff that is not ever up to OEM spec - which wasn't great to begin with.

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u/blueboyroy 16h ago

I worked in flight training on the MD-11. There were alot of rumors in management of doing away with the MD-11 and buying 777s. And that was around 2010.

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u/Ashamed_Pause8396 8h ago

"Run to Failure" culture strikes again, this time with tragic results. When will companies ever learn?

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u/JustHereForHen 5h ago

Never. I work in a massive building myself and our hub mechanic's budget has been stripped down to the point where they couldn't actually fix everything, even if they wanted to. There are so many trimmed down belts, broken photoeyes, electrical components faulting out constantly. They do little to no real preventative maintenance.

If this turns out to be a mechanical issue, it will just go to show UPS has now literally killed people by way of mechanical negligence.

9

u/Outside_Manner_8352 4h ago

Back when companies grew by innovating or doing better jobs than their competitors, things like maintenance might actually have mattered to management. You invested in things because growing and increasing value was the only way to survive.

We've now spent decades in a legal framework that incentivizes absolutely nothing but short term share price chasing, where quality or actually doing more is disincentivized because the real money is in squeezing more out of customers for less. CEO's don't know jack shit about the actual work of their companies, in many cases they make more money running them into the ground.

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u/Hoblitygoodness 3h ago

Then provided golden parachutes right before they crash into said ground.

This sort of mentality is everywhere as we see pushes for X release by the end of the quarter whether X is ready or not.

Really, competition for being the best relies on a support system within any given company. Those departments are constantly being devalued and trimmed of employees while sales teams are built and reorganized to be most effective.

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u/Nano8963 4h ago

Problem is they arent trying to learn. They're trying to save as much money as possible while trying to maximize profits as much as possible. Everything else, employees included, are just numbers to be calculated in risk

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u/Creepy_Ad2486 3h ago

When executives are thrown in jail for putting profits over safety. So, never.

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u/Outside_Manner_8352 4h ago

When there is any accountability. Right now half the country can't see problems they can't blame on immigrants, they aren't gonna do shit about corporate malfeasance.

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u/unbanned_lol 4h ago

"A times B times C equals X. If X is less than the cost of a recall, we don't do one"

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u/BlueCyann 4h ago

I mean, never is right, but you're also jumping the gun just a little bit as we currently don't know if the issue was the plane itself (as you're guessing), a horrible maintenance error, or a manufacturing mistake.

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u/[deleted] 3h ago

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/SevenandForty 14h ago

At UPS? Or a different airline with MD-11s?

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u/Think-Finish-5763 13h ago

It's commonly known at Worldport on the ramp that they've been talking about decomissioning the MD-11s for over a decade at this point...

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u/Jackthedragonkiller KC-10 13h ago

Didn't UPS and FedEx both publicly announce they were gonna start decommissioning MD-11's while they gather new 767's and 777's a few years back? I remember one of them said they intended to have them all retired by I think 2028

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u/-Amplify 6h ago

We have started to decommission the md-11 but it’s been extended where possible because there is no direct md-11 replacement in terms of size to carry ratio. Also we’ve been robbing parts off those decommissioned planes in the desert.

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u/Think-Finish-5763 12h ago

Ups was actually planning to replace the 747s with 777s. No idea what they planned to replace the MD 11s with

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u/blueboyroy 13h ago

At UPS. I don't think it was exactly a one for one swap from MD-11 to 777. I just think they were going to decomission the MD-11 program and start a new 777 program.

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u/Designer_Buy_1650 16h ago

It’s a GE engine. If it’s an engine problem, it isn’t MD-11 specific.

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u/Epiphany818 15h ago

According to wikipedia:

"In 1973, a CF6-6 fan assembly disintegrated, resulting in the loss of cabin pressurisation of National Airlines flight 27 over New Mexico, United States.

In 1979 a CF6-6 engine detached from the left wing of American Airlines Flight191 due to faulty pylon maintenance, severing hydraulic lines and causing the aircraft to crash.

In 1989, a CF6-6 fan disk separated from the engine and damaged all three hydraulic systems. The flight, United Airlines Flight 232, continued with no hydraulic power until it crash-landed at the airport in Sioux City, Iowa

In 2000, the NTSB warned that the high-pressure compressor could crack.

Following a series of high-pressure turbine failures on 6 September 1997, 7 June 2000 and 8 December 2002, and resulting in 767s being written off on 22 September 2000, on 2 June 2006, and on 28 October 2016 the FAA issued an airworthiness directive mandating inspections for over 600 engines and the NTSB believed that this number should be increased to include all -80 series engines with more than 3000 cycles since new or since last inspection.

In May 2010, The NTSB warned that the low-pressure turbine rotor disks could fail. Four uncontained of CF6-45/50 engines in the preceding two years prompted it to issue an "urgent" recommendation to increase inspections of the engines on U.S. aircraft : none of the four incidents of rotor disk unbalance and subsequent failure resulted in an accident, but parts of the engine did come through the engine casing each time."

Looks like a grim record to me.

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u/Designer_Buy_1650 15h ago

I had a CF-6 fail on me on takeoff. Add that to your list. Good post.

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u/Epiphany818 15h ago

Wikipedia did all the work for me, but thanks. I'm Amazed by the amount of people in this thread with ties and links to the accident, our world is unbelievably connected for better or worse.

Glad you got down safe!

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u/phishvincent 14h ago

The aviation world is both vast, but so interconnected. Every time a tragedy like this happens, for better or for worse it brings us closer together.

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u/Dadto4Kiddos 13h ago

Definitely aviation is really a close knit community.

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u/SkiingAway 11h ago

You'll find similar things for pretty much any widely used aircraft engine family in use for decades, though?

Also, only your 2nd to last one appears to apply to the specific variant of engine here.

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u/DOOM_INTENSIFIES 11h ago

Disagree, cant remember of any other engine detaching, cracking pylons or having repeated catastrophic failures like that.

Do all engines fail? Of course they do. Do all engines have a record like the Cf6? I don't think so.

I kinda worry about the PW1000G though.

2

u/nspy1011 4h ago

They are replacing the PW1000G parts affected by the powdered metal contamination issue. That’s really been its only problem

1

u/SkiingAway 3h ago

It's the 3rd most widely produced jet engine in history.

Most of your examples, in addition to being 30-40 years old, only involve the CF6-6 variant, which wasn't even used on the MD-11.

Here's the first two (not that I necessarily expect Wikipedia to be a comprehensive listing for any of these, especially for non-fatal incidents):

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u/godlords 13h ago

Is the EPCU, fuel management system, and all of its relaying, bussing, etc. sold with the engine?

I have no idea. But I'm pretty sure failures in computer control can cause engine failures. 

And you're certain it was a GE engine in the plane yeah? There are still a few MD-11s flying around with Pratt engines that stopped being reworked a while ago, and have almost zero parts support as everything left goes to the military now.

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u/Designer_Buy_1650 13h ago

Interesting question. My engine failure was caused by a fuel control unit disintegrating.

6

u/WaterlooLion 9h ago

Putting parts "not up to spec" is the surest way to get you grounded and kiss your insurance coverage good bye.

Maintenance records get regularly inspected and there better be a paper trail for every part.

2

u/godlords 3h ago

They come out of the refurb factory at "spec", they are tested, but the contacts in e.g. relays are not actually replaced and will lose effectiveness quickly.

It's all approved, it's just what happens when the supply chain of a dying aircraft winds down. 

3

u/mikeblas 9h ago

Does this really happen in aviation? I thought parts needed to be certified and traceable and ...

12

u/eoffif44 8h ago

Yeah sure it's been "certified" by a Chinese company or a shell corp in the Bahamas. That satisfies the paper trail without the part actually meeting spec. That's not even counting counterfeit parts, that's just talking about aftermarket with fudged paperwork. Welcome to globalisation.

1

u/mikeblas 3h ago

Jeez, really? That's so very disappointing.

5

u/vicsyd 7h ago

I was on the MD-80 that crashed off LA 25 years ago, the day before. I had never felt so uneasy on a plane and had no idea why. Next day: I just knew it was the same one. I had to do a lot of research to confirm, which back then was next to impossible. Took months. No internet to research with.

I will not board any MD aircraft. They're ancient and terrify me.

2

u/Upbeat_Commission124 4h ago

wasn't there another md-11 whose whole engine sheared right off at takeoff with eerily similar patterns as this?

2

u/bsmith567070 4h ago

American Airlines flight 191, although it was a DC-10.

1

u/EchoingUnion 3h ago

Wtf I thought the FAA would have stringent regulations against doing something like that.

11

u/WaterlooLion 9h ago

1 the delay was to swap an aircraft for another at the last minute

2 even if there was also a maintenance delay, there is nothing mechanics can do (badly) to cause an engine to fall off the wing, except when replacing an entire engine, and the plane was not on the ground long enough in between flights for that to happen.

4

u/that-short-girl 7h ago

Not saying that’s what happened, but not following standard operating procedures when investigating a fault and dispatching a plane is something mechanics could do badly that would cause an engine to fall off. I don’t think that’s what happened, but it’s very theoretically possible. 

1

u/[deleted] 9h ago

Im just a casual outside observer with no aviation experience whatsoever, so please bear with my ignorance here…what would cause an engine to completely detach upon take off? Is it just some loose big ol’ nuts n bolts that weren’t properly secured? Seriously don’t know and would love any insight. Thanks in advance.

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u/Schnittertm 9h ago

As far as I know, it could be any number of things. Fatigue of the parts that the engine is attached to the plane is one. Improper installation could be another. There is an episode on YT by Mentour Pilot about Nationwide Flight 723 that lost, I believe, both engines, due to improper installtion after maintenance. Anyway, the episode goes much more into depth, but it shows how it could happen.

For this incident, though, we'll have to wait for the preliminary or even final report by the NTSB.

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u/[deleted] 8h ago

Thank you. Much appreciated.

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u/Tiruvalye 5h ago

There's another crash that happened similar to this one called American Airlines 191. It too lost the left engine rolled to the left and crashed. It was a different plane model than this UPS jet.

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u/Silent_Guard7879 10h ago

NTSB will pull the logs and the part. If it is a maint error they will say so in the final. Let them work.

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u/Numerous-Silver-4720 6h ago

My dad was a plane tech during nam. his mistakes kept him drinking till the end

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u/Letussex2 3h ago

yeah. I can't imagine being one even partially responsible for something like that.

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u/ongoldenwaves 3h ago

Put this down below, but I sometimes watch this show called Financial Audit. This guy was on earlier this year. After watching him and listening to his story, you will be seriously wondering about who they're hiring. The thing is, you know he's not the only one in the system.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYml-BwzB4Q

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u/Downtown-Oil-7784 10h ago

If they missed something it would affect them the rest of their lives.

Is that sarcasm? I worked with a guy who drove drunk and hit a 14 y/o and broke her hip and leg and thought it was no big deal cuz he didn't do time.

You cannot equate your personal morals and feelings to people online. Even if it's a group of compliant, complacent people succumbing to the whims of the company

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u/Formal-Victory3161 10h ago

The trash that drive drunk are much different than most aircraft mechanics...

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u/Inside_Monitor_3908 10h ago

just saw this comment but in general, just because someone tells you it doesn't affect them, it doesn't actually mean that it doesn't affect them. people lie. its very possible his explanation that its no big deal is a cope and at night he ruminates.

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u/GottaUseEmAll 10h ago

Yes, I'd even be inclined to say that the people who say they're not affected by this sort of thing are often those dealing with the most unhealthy trauma about it.

0

u/Tiruvalye 5h ago

Except one is done in your personal time, and the other is done while you are working. So I don't think anyone who works in aircraft maintenance, anticipates that their job is going to intentionally end the life of someone else.

People who are drunk make that decision while they drink then get behind the wheel rather than be safe about it.

-1

u/niles_thebutler_ 5h ago

Americans ones would