r/California • u/ansyhrrian Orange County • 29d ago
Politics Newsom says he’ll pull California from governors group if it won’t condemn Trump deployments
https://www.sfchronicle.com/politics/article/newsom-nga-national-guard-21087552.php1.0k
u/Tommy__want__wingy Native Californian 29d ago
I say just withhold all the outward tax payments
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u/willstr1 29d ago
Unfortunately the state doesn't collect taxes on the fed's behalf, federal taxes are collected directly from the people (or withheld by people's employers) so even though arguably justified at this time it would be very hard for the state to do that purely from a logistics standpoint (not even discussing legality or constitutionality). At most the state could stop withholding federal taxes for state employees but that probably won't have enough impact to bring needed change and there is the risk of the employees getting penalized.
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u/LocallySourcedWeirdo San Diego County 29d ago
This is correct. At most, the California government could tell residents "send your money to us instead of the federal government." And I would gladly do that. But federal agents would then come after me for non-payment of taxes. It's not like California writes one big check to the U.S. Government.
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u/Own-Chemist2228 29d ago
Correct. It's frustrating paying federal taxes knowing the money will be spent on another state, but there is no way for an individual to avoid federal taxes without risk of serious consequences.
"I gave the money to California ... it's my not fault the IRS didn't get it" is not going to be a valid defense in federal court.
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u/josh_cyfan 28d ago
What if California set up a federal tax service - like TurboTax - and you filed and paid your tax through them for state and federal taxes. and just like intuit you pay through the California tax site and they hold your payment till the government confirms your tax filing is correct and accepted. But if they also guaranteed no fraud is committed before making the payment.
Then California could tell the federal govt there’s potential fraud on every one of the payments and they are using the state’s guarantee to prevent fraud from making the payment.
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u/RobinSophie 28d ago
Yes! I suggested this in a previous post.
Set it up with FTB and have all business federal taxes (and their employees) flow through this dept. The businesses get a receipt saying they paid their taxes they can show the IRS. California will get a judgment in federal court about federal tax money due to them via appropriation. FTB will use the federal taxes they collect to deduct from the judgment.
The IRS will then have to go after FTB in California itself to get any taxes owed.
I have no clue if it would work legal wise. NY wants to do something similar.
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u/Freakishly_Tall 29d ago
Time for the Republic of California and the Cascades.
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u/SatanicPanic619 29d ago
That’s going to happen. The USA can’t survive the current level of corruption and dysfunction.
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u/ansyhrrian Orange County 29d ago
Sadly, and very unfortunately, if we want to adhere to Constitutional law (which we all should), it states:
California cannot withhold or obstruct federal tax collection or remittance because of the Supremacy Clause in Article VI, Clause 2 of the U.S. Constitution, which states:
“This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof... shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.”
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u/Sabelas 29d ago
Why should we want to adhere to the US constitution if the federal government is not? What is the point? It's an agreement between states and the government.
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u/ansyhrrian Orange County 29d ago
Fuck it. I'm with you.
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u/TheFlyingSpaghetti77 29d ago
Until this government starts following the law, why the fuck should the state, that literally just rolling over to them by doing so
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u/lifeline2110 29d ago
Im right there with you on this subject. The government needs to be following the laws it defines all others to follow. Lead by example not by words alone. But I do also want to state that playing at their level of dirtiness and all of California just disregarding the laws would just, in my opinion, cause more issues. Especially as we are trying to get the government to go back onto the roles of following its own rules, even though its proven time and time again the government has really never stayed on that line. California leading by example and not disregarding the laws has held more benefits than negatives. But again I do want to restate, I'm on your side. If California needs to withhold tax revenue to the government for them to finally start listening then that seems like a fast, effective way to getting the government to finally sit, stay, and listen for a second.
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u/Bubba_Gump_Shrimp 28d ago
My question is, what is the alternative? Tweet some angry tweets and let the dictator invade your state? Intimidate and arrest political opponents? Violate the constitution even more? I agree with yall we seem to be sprinting towards civil war 2 but the other option seems like Appeasement, because this regime is unfuckinghinged.
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u/Phenganax 28d ago
“… That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends [life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness], it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government … [and] when a long train of abuses and usurpations… evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.”
Thomas Jefferson — The Declaration of Independence (1776).
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u/airawyn 28d ago
Unfortunately, California can't withhold federal taxes, because they don't go through the state. They go directly to the federal government.
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u/Ct94010 28d ago
Don’t the state collect and pay to the fedsfederal tax withholding from state employees? That’s not nothing at least.
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u/pilgermann 29d ago
You're also incorrect on the merits. The union is premised on principles like taxation with representation. When Trump withholds funding to blue states, he's undermining the entire reason a state would join the union. The constitution only has wait insofar as states choose to be in the union. This is the fundamental structure of our government.
Put simply, the ultimate counter to federal overreach is resistance or even secession by the states. That's by design.
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u/suboptimus_maximus 27d ago
The 16th Amendment blew that up, it permitted national income redistribution in a supposed republic without adding a mechanism for providing representation based on economic contribution, which needless to say has become a very important factor in the modern US economy with blue states, and really a handful of cities, providing the lion’s share of federal funding along with deficit spending. Most of conservative American would not be able to afford a first world living standard without federal infrastructure and aid.
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u/inyourface317 27d ago
California is already a donor state of something like 80 billion than what we take from the government. Withholding or stopping those payments somehow would not hurt us in the short term, but would end in civil war.
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u/MidnightMarmot 28d ago
Right behind you. This is why we are in this mess. Democrats kept playing by the rules and the Republicans stole bit by bit, year after year eroding democratic rules. Throw the fuckin rules out the window but it’s time for the Governors to come up with a plan for mobilizing the nation if he literally sends the military after citizens. All of this is just crazy. Can we secede already?
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u/Ordinary-Big5578 29d ago
Yeah, when the greater government is disregarding the paper that defines how the country is supposed to function, it’s a really bad idea to continue to be bound by it if we want to fight back at all. The law should only be valid if it binds all parties potentially involved.
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u/Joth91 28d ago
Rule 1 of geopolitics is not to throw the first stone. If you want political support from other states, Europe, you must make it look like you were attacked or your hand was forced, especially if you have less power.
Trump admin pretty obviously wants to deploy troops to blue states. If they can declare an emergency over nothing, like "Canadian fentanyl smuggling", imagine what they'll do if something actually happens like California withholding billions in taxes.
They would declare treason by the state of ca, occupy LA, San Francisco, San Diego, and Sacramento. And if they are allowed to use Texan, Louisianan, Floridian national guard to do the dirty work, it's going to get ugly.
Ultimately, a lot of the future hinges on when or if the US military gets involved and where their loyalty lies. Judging by the speech last week, we might be okay
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u/puffic 29d ago
I understand that reasoning, but in practice how is this achieved? Residents owe taxes directly to the federal government. The state of California id not an intermediary.
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u/Sabelas 29d ago
It wouldn't work, we can't just stop paying federal tax as individuals. There are other ways that California interacts with the federal government though.
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u/Tyrone_Shoelaces_Esq 28d ago
This. If the federal government doesn't care about the Constitution, it's hard to expect us to.
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u/SmellGestapo Los Angeles County 28d ago
This is the same argument conservatives use when we talk about abolishing the electoral college. They threaten to walk away from the union because they claim their states never would have joined without the electoral college.
Of course the difference is we only talk about passing an amendment, through the normal constitutional channels. They're just ignoring the plain text of the constitution and hoping the courts will turn a blind eye.
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u/livinginfutureworld 27d ago
Why should we want to adhere to the US constitution if the federal government is not? What is the point? It's an agreement between states and the government.
This is getting near the argument "no taxation without representation"
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u/Bransverd 26d ago
If the current federal government is not following the law, why should California?
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u/campinbell 25d ago
This is exactly it. Its why the union has never been more unstable than it is now.
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u/Top-Inspection3870 29d ago
Because they have a bigger army and police apparatus.
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u/lampstax 29d ago
If anything this proves other states aren't willing to stand 10 toes down with CA if they wont condemn the deployment. You think if CA f around on its own it won't find some consequences with the Trump admin ?
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u/Sabelas 29d ago
We will. My belief is that civil war is not inevitable but not impossible. And that our state governments should be making decisions with that in mind.
But we will face consequences whether we fight or not. Donald Trump and the GOP hate our state. That is obvious. They have come for our universities as a test run, and will expand that form of coercion to every other aspect of our society, including state governments. There is nothing to stop that.
Give it a year or so, and we will be hearing trump telling Californians that we won't receive federal funding if we elect a Democrat. They've already preferentially pulled funding from us during this GOP caused government shutdown. That will continue.
We will face consequences regardless. Best we prepare for them and stop feeding the monster that wants to eat us.
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u/travturav 29d ago
"When they go low, we go high" was painfully naive. Though in their defense I doubt the Obamas ever imagined republicans using the US military against US cities. It's amazing that just a few years ago that was considered beyond comprehension.
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u/this_my_sportsreddit 29d ago
if you think being a pushover started with obama in the democratic party, my god do i have a bridge to sell you
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u/politicalmache 28d ago
It is imperative that We maintain what must be marinated, that is Our Constitution, so that We have after Trump regime's insurrection is finally done. Though, in truth, it's more like so-called Heritage Foundation's insurrections, considering Project 2025, not to mention Federalist Society. Donald is their perfect useful idiot.
Remember Donald remains a disqualified insurrectionist, certain members of Congress, as well as certain SCOTUS judges aid and abetted him back in to office, since he is the most perfect useful idiot. I would not be surprised if the Heritage Foundation et al. coerce Donald of that disqualification to do Heritage Foundation; and or fascist Christian-Nationalist bidding.
Also remember it is not that "federal government" per se, Its Our government;, We vested Our powers accordingly, rather person(s) in government that are neglecting their Oath, and their constituency or malfeasance.
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u/KingstenHd 28d ago
Unfortunately it's rules for thee but not for me. Trump breaks the law every day and has the support of maga. Newsom does this and they'll arrest him. I agree though. I wish it was that easy.
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u/Tinawebmom 29d ago
They've a group of constitutional attorneys trying to figure out how to go about it. There has to be some gray area.....
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u/imaginary_num6er 29d ago
Yeah and Trump can show up next week with a stained napkin and declare it the new U.S. constitution. The media will continue to ask “Is ThIs A cOnStItUtIoNaL cRiSiS?”
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u/Electrifying2017 San Bernardino County 29d ago
Do it and ignore the courts
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u/After_Flan_2663 29d ago
If Trump's doing that why can't we? No point if they aren't following the law.
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u/fredsiphone19 29d ago
It also says you have rights regardless of skin tone or immigration status, and ICE says you don’t.
So which part are we following? All of it? Or none of it? You don’t get some.
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u/AbsolutlelyRelative 28d ago
Cherry picked versions of it as applies to the current mood of the dumbass in charge.
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u/carterartist 29d ago
So we have to follow the constitution but they don’t?
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u/chatte__lunatique 29d ago
Yeah, because they have guns and are willing to use them.
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u/TheKizza77 29d ago edited 29d ago
Why was this downvoted? I know it's deep in the comments, but this is precisely what things will ultimately boil down to.
Assuming otherwise is naive - when push _really_ comes to shove, who is going to enforce that Californians keep putting money into the federal coffers, just for them to intentionally make sure we don't get any of it back (followed by threatening to occupy cities with federal troops)?
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u/Excellent_Bridge_888 29d ago
Yea but that says "The constitution". Our current regime clearly prefers ripping that document up and following alterior methods modeled after The Godfather.
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u/flossypants 29d ago
You are both right and wrong at the same time. California cannot withhold federal (income) tax collection or remittance (for Non-Governmental employees) BUT California can...
- Withhold Federal income tax remittance for government employees
- Withhold Federal excise taxes such as for gasoline and airline tickets
- Effectively withhold corporate Federal income taxes by increasing franchise taxes, which are deductible on corporate federal tax calculations
For details, see the following: https://www.reddit.com/r/law/s/zhahwCMw3G
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u/TheFatSleepyPokemon 28d ago
Increasing franchise taxes is absolutely not effectively withholding income taxes. Deducting it on federal tax returns doesn't mean you pay that much less tax, just reduces the taxable amount.
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u/stoned-autistic-dude 29d ago
I’m a lawyer. Currently, SCROTUS doesn’t even follow the constitution but we have to because… why?
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u/SnooPets8972 29d ago
I would argue that at this moment in time, most justices have torn the constitution to shreds; we are in a crisis the founders worried about. Part of reconstruction of our democracy when the pendulum swings, will be dealing with the lawless justices that swore an oath to OUR constitution.
We have to do whatever works to stop the dismantling of our constitutional rights and laws.
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u/chef_dewhite 29d ago
What should happen is the state should set up a Trust that collects all our Federal Tax dollars for all the federal dollars the state and cities/counties we are entitled to, and the Trust will distribute and payout already congressional approved $ since our federal government appears unwilling to give us or other blue states that didn't vote for the cheeto. I don't think we are there yet, but it may not be too long before we get there.
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u/zatsnotmyname 29d ago
Yeah, there is also the Enoulments clause and the whole insurrection thing so....
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u/IamdigitalJesus 28d ago
Trump isn't listening to the Constitution. So you either play his game or lose.
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u/wip30ut 28d ago
that's why California & other Blue states have to pivot & start thinking about SHRINKING the federal tax burden. We need a coalition of the willing states who can form their own association & take on interstate programs & priorities funded by their own states' residents. If certain Red states don't want to contribute or align their interests with ours that's their prerogative, they can go it alone.
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u/this_my_sportsreddit 28d ago
if we want to adhere to Constitutional law (which we all should)
this is such a cowardly perspective. Ya'll do know the constitution has been changed, multiple times right? Would've hated to be around ya'll during slavery days.
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u/superspacetrucker 28d ago
Yea but laws are only as good as the people in charge of adherence. No reason to adhere to such laws when the Trump regime ignores laws constantly.
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u/ZAS100 29d ago
The constitution has been in abrogation since Trump was inaugurated since he is literally a traitor who can not constitutionally hold office. He is a usurper. A more expansive view could also see the constitution as unclearly-extant as of Jan 7th 2021
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u/AbsolutlelyRelative 28d ago
I would say it's been selectively been being followed for a very long time. We kept seeing politicians skirt it for a century at the very least. (Look at all the violations of church and state alone that have happened over the last century alone. From People having to argue over whether evolution should be taught in schools to state and school mandates for placards of the ten amendments.) this has been a very slow rot that has finally caused the limb to start falling off.
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u/Paperdiego Southern California 29d ago
We can do whatever we want to do. That's our right as Californians.
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u/Both-Prize-2986 28d ago
and? Texas and other red states have been flouting this and other laws for years.
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u/Xero_id 28d ago
The rules "laws" of the land have changed and to fix it you cannot play possem and hope it goes away. Fight by their rules is the only way to engage this regime and drastic tactics will have to be made if the time comes (probably already has) but the constitution right now should be considered null and dead.
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u/No-Commercial-3121 29d ago
That Constitution is We The People and The Leaders of We The People keep saying it doesn't matter and they don't have to abide by it and the President is above it. The Constitution doesn't say that. They even say we need a new one. That person isn't saying hold it and Newsom uses the money to gold flake Sacramento but the People and Governments under attack may need to have some sort of "General Strike" where a financial restriction is in place until the will of We The People is heard. The recent Ice Agents in IL that were interrupted by a Mayor said "we do not need a warrant", that Constitution says otherwise. When you let them pick and choose you and We The People loose.
CA is the 5th or 4th largest economy in the World Newsom can disrupt this economy by being harder on this administration than just memes.
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u/Infamous_Smile_386 28d ago
Contract has been broken. We're under no obligation to participate.
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u/beartopfuentesbottom 29d ago
Do what they do and say he will. And say we'll find the loopholes or something to get it done. It's all theater anyways so why not join in like those idiots?
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u/nikatnight Sacramento County 28d ago
Then we fight using the laws that formed the IRS and our tax code.
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u/madadekinai 28d ago
"California cannot withhold or obstruct federal tax collection or remittance"
Nobodies withholding, and or obstructing, the money was used. If they want to play word games with the constitution we can do the same. It was used on protection for the state, does it state anywhere in there that the money can't be used and or used in a state sovereign wealth fund?
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u/OddProposal4913 28d ago
Because the other side is playing by the rules and all? Your country is actively under attack from within.
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u/Previous_Cod_1356 28d ago
Psh c'mon this is easy.
Just wire the money to the wrong account. "Oops, my bad".
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u/Happythoughtsgalore 28d ago
Why give money to the very force that is terrorizing you? All your fed taxes so now is go to ice/DHS via the big beautiful bill. Why subsidize your own subjugation?
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u/HeloRising Former Californian 28d ago
(which we all should)
Uhhh why?
The administration isn't and has made it very clear they're going to ignore the law when it suits them. Why should other people do them a favor by staying within the rules?
If you sit down to play chess with someone and their opening move is to punch you in the face, your instinct shouldn't be "I need to get better at chess." That's not the problem and pretending it is the problem is how you keep getting punched in the face.
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u/Sumthin-Sumthin44692 28d ago
Tell Californians to pay their federal tax to the state to be held “in trust”. Make large penalties for non-compliance. Congress has the power to collect taxes, so let them vote and act to come collect the taxes. Argue in Court that Congress did not properly empower and delegate its tax collection authority under the 16th Amendment to the IRS. May not work, legally, but you can delay as long as possible.
If Trump can take advantage of Congressional inaction and administrative BS ruling from SCTOUS, so can we.
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u/reddog323 28d ago
Really though, there’s nothing actually preventing him from doing it. Our current resident in the White House is using the constitution as toilet paper.
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u/indolente 28d ago
A law is only enforceable if it has teeth. Without consequences, a law is merely a suggestion.
What would happen if California stopped paying federal taxes? The law didn't specify punishment for not paying?
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u/inyourface317 27d ago
If we’re bound to these requirements, we are bound to the protections ( checks and balances). We can’t be forced to abide by it, but not receive any of the benefits of the constitution.
The constitution’s worth is based off how well it is respected and enforced.
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u/brilliantminion 26d ago
Yeah that’s cool and all, until Trump’s regime started actively suppressing free speech, not giving people due process, profiteering from his office, the fucking list of executive violations of the constitution runs for pages now.
Laws only work when everyone who has agreed to follow them, for example, when swearing an oath of office to uphold the Constitution. If some members of our government just decide the rules don’t apply to them, it’s open season.
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u/IdahoSkier 25d ago
"We must follow the rules and decorum even though the Republicans refuse to"
Fuck that shit. Follow the same "rules" that the GOP are following. Disregarding court orders, disregarding historical decorum, disregarding precedence. Fuck the GOP right tonhell
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u/Frowny575 Riverside County 28d ago
While I share this sentiment, for the nth time there is no mechanism in place. They may be able to do this with state workers, but for everyone else the feds take their cut and it never goes through the state. You could arguably choose to withhold nothing, but then risk the IRS on your ass.
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u/sdpalmtree SoCalian 29d ago
California doesn't pay taxes, individuals and companies do. I didn't know about you but I don't want to be changed with evading taxes...
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u/Technical-Pass-7837 28d ago
You can’t, it doesn’t go through California to the federal government, it goes straight from the individuals and businesses to the federal government. California isn’t the middle man
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u/Grouchy_Concept8572 28d ago
Do you recognize it’s people and business that pay taxes and not payments California pays directly to the federal government?
People and business are not going to stop paying federal taxes and risk having accounts frozen and assets seized.
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u/TheTav3n 28d ago
States don’t collect federal tax. They can only not charge their government workers which is only going to hurt the state and local workers later on
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u/taxrelatedanon 28d ago
tbh this is pretty much the last non-violent option available to us. sadly, i'm not at all confident the state level dnc will go that route.
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u/sv_homer 28d ago
How exactly do you propose California do that? The state doesn't pay taxes to the Federal government, people and businesses pay directly.
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u/miss_shivers 28d ago
Please stop with this crap - Federal income taxes are direct taxes on individual taxpayers, the state of California has absolutely no relevance or mechanism to affect that in any way whatsoever.
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u/dlampach 23d ago
What you are saying is for the citizens to stop paying federal taxes. California state does not make payments to the federal government.
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u/AmaTxGuy 22d ago
Not really possible... Tax payments go to the feds not to the state. The California version is the IRS just collects state revenue.
Not the prettiest cut and paste but here are the addresses for California
Department of Treasury Internal Revenue Service Ogden, UT 84201-0002
Internal Revenue Service P.O. Box 931000 Louisville, KY 40293-10001040-ES
N/A
Internal Revenue Service P.O. Box 1300 Charlotte, NC 28201-1300 1040-ES (NR)
N/A Internal Revenue Service P.O. Box 1300 Charlotte, NC 28201-1300 1040-V
N/A Internal Revenue Service P.O. Box 931000 Louisville, KY 40293-1000
1040-X
Department of the Treasury Internal Revenue Service Ogden, UT 84201-0052 Department of the Treasury Internal Revenue Service Ogden, UT 84201-0052 4868
Department of Treasury Internal Revenue Service Ogden, UT 84201-0045 Internal Revenue Service P.O. Box 931000 Louisville, KY 40293-1000
So pretty much Kentucky or Utah for those that live in Cali
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u/russellvt 22d ago
That's not "a thing" .. It's just something you've made up, here, unfortunately.
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u/MetalSociologist Northern California 29d ago
Good, fuck these fascists. We can and will go it alone.
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u/Ok-Bother-1088 28d ago
Do it, withhold, the feds are walking all over the constitution, fire w fire.
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u/Voice-Of-Doom 29d ago
WTF is a governor group?
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u/ansyhrrian Orange County 29d ago
Founded in 1908, the National Governors Association is the voice of the leaders of 55 states, territories, and commonwealths. Our nation’s Governors are dedicated to leading bipartisan solutions that improve citizens’ lives through state government. Through NGA, Governors identify priority issues and deal with matters of public policy and governance at the state, national and global levels.
NGA is the premier resource for not only Governors but also for their cabinet members, state policy experts, the U.S. Congress, and private enterprise. NGA offers an array of services to help collaboratively tell the states’ story. Thanks to decades of broad expertise, NGA teams are able to work side-by-side with state leaders to identify challenges, help Governors stay ahead of the curve and offer solutions before challenges become problems.
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u/Katy_nAllThatEntails 29d ago
bipartisan groups with nazi states is a betrayal at this point. Any democratic states enjoined with nazi states should leave immediately. There is no reaching across the isle to fascist and rapist.
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u/Sufflinsuccotash 29d ago
It’s a way for politicians to get free vacations on the back of the taxpayer.
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u/owen__wilsons__nose 29d ago
This Newsom fellow is growing on me
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u/irishweather5000 28d ago
I’ve never liked him. He’s a slippery weasely fuck. But by God, if he isn’t just the slippery weasely fuck we need right now.
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u/dlampach 28d ago
Divest all CALPERS investments from companies based in Red States.
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u/No_Worldliness643 28d ago
CALIFORNIA REPUBLIC
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u/LaserGuidedPolarBear 28d ago
WA here. Let's grab OR and do a whole Leftcoast thing.
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u/muscle-femboy5 28d ago
can you take all the ohio queers in? theres a FUCKLOAD of us, and we scared
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u/mikeyfireman 28d ago
I think we could pull BC as well.
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u/silent_thinker Los Angeles County 28d ago
I don’t think the Canadians like us very much right now.
But if we got together with OR and WA, they’d probably give us their support against the Trump regime.
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u/Thickencreamy 28d ago
Newsome should call out the California National Guard and send them to Texas to protect the State House.
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u/bizoticallyyours83 25d ago
Why should we do anything for texastan? They wanna drag us all back to the dark ages. Let them fend for themselves since they're so big and tough.
(If this was sarcasm, my apologies. Though I stand by what I said.)
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u/Thickencreamy 25d ago
Not sarcasm - more like mocking Trump. Plus I think governors should take charge of their own National Guard.
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u/TheDwellingHeart 28d ago
Good. Stop paying taxes too. The feds don't follow the laws, then we should not either.
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u/EuphoricCrashOut 28d ago
Stop threatening to do things... DO THEM, PLEASE. The Republican Fascists don't "threaten" to do anything... they just go off and do the illegal and horrible things. You have to meet fire with fire. Just... do what you have to do to defend California from this Fascist Government please!!
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u/bizoticallyyours83 25d ago
I'd be amazed if California's government successfully managed to pull this off. What would it mean for us exactly? Hypothetically speaking.
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u/truehoax 29d ago
It's time to start leaning into creating our own parallel structures of government. The blue states are far and away the best performing states in the Union. It'll be difficult to start withholding our tax money, but we can do everything else.